Tourism Media Mayhem With Josh Scheer and Sasha JacksonJosh Scheer & Sasha Jackson
About Our Guest
Josh Scheer & Sasha Jackson
In this special episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast, Adam is joined by Josh Scheer and Sasha Jackson, the hosts of the Destination Marketing Podcast Network's newest show, Tourism Media Mayhem. Hear what they have to say about media buying in the tourism industry, and get a sneak peek of what you can find on their show.
"It really needs to be full funnel. You're going to miss out on opportunities if you're not focused on the top, and you're going to miss out on opportunities if you're not focused on the bottom." -Josh Scheer on the importance of focusing on the entire marketing funnel
- Name: Adam Stoker
- Position: Co-founder and CEO of Relic
- Favorite Destination:
- Dream Destination:
- Name: Sasha Jackson
- Position: Director of Media and Client Services at Relic Advertising
- Favorite Destination:
- Dream Destination:
- Name: Josh Scheer
- Position: Digital Marketing Director at Relic Advertising
- Favorite Destination:
- Dream Destination:
“Tourism Media Mayhem With Josh Scheer and Sasha Jackson” – Show Notes and Highlights
- Tourism Media Mayhem Podcast has conversations about how to buy media and help figure out when and where to buy different types of media and what’s worthy for specific audiences.
- Traditional media is really important in campaign billboards, especially when raising brand awareness. While the digital media drives demand to the digital tactics where a lot of the conversion actually happens.
- Traditional media has a tendency to be heavy on awareness.
- Tourism is a harder sell than other products. It takes time and frequency.
- For small to mid-sized destinations, spreading dollars across multiple channels is one of the mistakes seen in using traditional media.
- Destinations who use digital medial with no specific goal to accomplish are making a big mistake.
Resources Mentioned in the Podcast:
Josh Scheer: [00:00:00] It really needs to be full funnel. If we can focus on just getting people to download visitor guides or just trying to get people to book something if you’re lucky enough to have a booking engine on your site. But honestly, you’re going to miss out on opportunities if you’re not focused at the top and then you’re going to miss out if not from the bottom.
Adam Stoker: [00:00:20] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast. I’m your host, Adam Stoker. Most of you know but I’m just going to remind everybody that may be new to my show. I own an advertising agency called Relic and we are a full-service advertising agency helping destinations across the country to get visitors to their destination. I’ve got some unique guests here today and I’m excited. So I guess another thing for new listeners, we don’t just have a podcast, we have a podcast network called the Destination Marketing Podcast Network and I have two of the hosts, co-hosts from one of those shows in the network with me today. The show is called Tourism Media Mayhem and I’ve got Sasha Jackson, who is our Director of Traditional Media and Account Service. I also have Josh Scheer with me, who is our Director of Digital Marketing and Strategic Partnerships. Welcome to you both.
Josh Scheer: [00:01:22] Yo.
Sasha Jackson: [00:01:23] Thank you.
Josh Scheer: [00:01:24] I was kind of wondering who you were going to introduce first.
Sasha Jackson: [00:01:27] It was me.
Josh Scheer: [00:01:27] Now, it’s telling me. I get it.
Adam Stoker: [00:01:29] Listen, Josh don’t be offended first of all. Okay? However, I have no regrets about the order in which I represent.
Josh Scheer: [00:01:37] Totally, totally, totally.
Sasha Jackson: [00:01:38] High five.
Adam Stoker: [00:01:40] Another thing that’s kind of fun is we are all here in the studio together which most of my interviews on my show are remote. So we have to kind of look at each other and see when each other is going to talk. This will be an interesting change.
Josh Scheer: [00:01:53] Is the eye contact uncomfortable?
Adam Stoker: [00:01:55] It’s the amount of time that you’re holding it Josh that I’m struggling with here.
Sasha Jackson: [00:02:00] Now you know what I have to deal with Adam.
Adam Stoker: [00:02:04] This is where HR sometimes you might need to get involved so we’ll end it there, I guess. Not the show, just that part of the conversation.
Josh Scheer: [00:02:14] That’s all you need to know about what we do.
Sasha Jackson: [00:02:15] It accurately captured our podcast. We have fun with it.
Adam Stoker: [00:02:19] Okay, well we know Josh is feeling bad. So I’m going to ask Josh a question. Josh, tell us about Tourism Media Mayhem and what listeners might be able to expect if they’re considering listening to the show.
Josh Scheer: [00:02:30] Well, the whole purpose of it is to have conversations about how to buy media and help you figure out when and where to buy different types of media and what’s good for what audience and Sasha and I rarely agree. So we fight all the time.
Adam Stoker: [00:02:47] Sasha, why don’t you guys always agree?
Sasha Jackson: [00:02:49] So it’s important to know that Josh handles digital media. That’s his expertise and my expertise is traditional. So there’s a little bit of a gap sometimes there, but I think we do come together sometimes.
Josh Scheer: [00:03:01] So I handle the fun stuff and she handles the old stuff.
Sasha Jackson: [00:03:05] See, this is what it consists of.
Adam Stoker: [00:03:06] Shots fired.
Sasha Jackson: [00:03:08] Shots fired. I’m used to it. Bring it on Josh.
Adam Stoker: [00:03:11] So Sasha, as you guys are doing this show, what can listeners expect and maybe tell us from the first couple of episodes that you guys have got out there if they want to go listen to those, what are they going to hear?
Sasha Jackson: [00:03:24] Yeah you bet. I mean like Josh said, we have a lot of good debates going on or fights, Josh calls them, or debates depending on how you look at it. But we talk about –
Josh Scheer: [00:03:31] We’re friendly.
Sasha Jackson: [00:03:33] Most of the time. But we talk about the perfect media mix, like what tactics should you incorporate into your media mix for a destination. So we do have some helpful tips in there if you’re planning a marketing plan or you just thinking about your campaign, that’s something you might want to tune into. We have guests from time to time. We’ll bring in some experts. Thank goodness. You don’t have to listen to us the whole time. So we do have a few experts coming on and we have them. I think we have one coming up soon with Tim with Dynamic.
But yeah, so we have a lot of stuff going on. I think we have a really fun environment. A little bit more relaxed, casual. Let’s have fun with it.
Adam Stoker: [00:04:07] Good. All right, Josh. I’m going to make you get outside your comfort zone a little bit here. I want you to tell me about a campaign that you’ve seen where traditional media was actually really important. And I’m going to make you do digital Sasha.
Sasha Jackson: [00:04:23] Okay.
Josh Scheer: [00:04:24] Oh, you’re giving her head’s up. That’s cool.
Sasha Jackson: [00:04:27] Yes.
Josh Scheer: [00:04:28] Okay. I think I got it.
Adam Stoker: [00:04:30] Let’s hear it.
Josh Scheer: [00:04:31] So I do think that there is value especially in outdoor. I am a believer in the efficacy of billboards, especially when it comes to raising awareness for very specific things. So for instance, our client, UVHBA, which is the Utah Valley Home Builders Association, they put on an annual parade of homes. We have definitely seen on the digital side an increase in sales when it’s coupled with outdoor brand awareness. So we don’t do a ton of brand awareness on the digital side for them. We stick pretty low funnel and it actually works really well when we’ve got that outdoor element.
Adam Stoker: [00:05:13] I know that was painful for you, Josh to make that concession.
Josh Scheer: [00:05:17] It was.
Adam Stoker: [00:05:19] I’m proud of you. How about you Sasha?
Sasha Jackson: [00:05:20] Can I get that clip from our producer just for like to save it?
Adam Stoker: [00:05:25] Yeah, Julie put that one aside.
Sasha Jackson: [00:05:27] He’s an add to me later. No, I think, I mean when it comes to digital, a lot of my tactics just drive sales right down the funnel to Josh’s tactics where we see customers convert and we’ve seen that with, Tuacahn Amphitheater, a beautiful amphitheater in southern Utah that we work with. We’ve drove, we’ve done a lot of widespread awareness and then we’ve been able to capture people through social and through pay per click and we’ve been able to see actual revenue from people signing up in track.
So when it comes to tracking, some of Josh’s tactics definitely are able to do that were mine are sometimes. And so that’s just one example. And then we’ve seen that across a lot of clients.
Adam Stoker: [00:06:07] So you touched on something interesting for me, Sasha, that I think it’s important for our listeners to kind of grasp from this and that traditional media and digital media both they do have their place. But you mentioned that your purview, your tactics that you’re working with on the traditional side tend to drive demand to the digital tactics where a lot of the conversion actually happens. Tell me about that dynamic. Tell me how does that work? How does traditional media flow into digital media and what’s the dynamic between the two?
Sasha Jackson: [00:06:42] Yeah. You bet. I think a lot of my tactics like we talked about just raise awareness and so people, it might be the first touchpoint that someone has with your brand or with your product and they see you on a billboard and then later they may be more interested. They might see you on a billboard, they might see you on a TV spot and then they might be interested to actually look you up online. When they get online, they’re going to run into Josh’s ads across Facebook or across Google or whatever it may be, right? And then they may actually click through it.
So it might take a few touchpoints. Whereas if they saw that ad without seeing your bill or without seeing your TV spot, they might not be familiar with your brand and they might not want to click through. So if they have some awareness established and they have that foundation and they might actually take action when they come across you online.
Adam Stoker: [00:07:25] Yeah, I think this is where it’s really important for any destination or organization to understand their buyer journey and the marketing funnel, right? So awareness, consideration, and purchase. That’s the buyer journey. For some organizations, it’s a one day buyer journey, you find out that day you make the purchase that day. For other organizations, and I would argue for tourism destinations that is a much longer buying cycle than the one day that maybe like a retail product gets, right?
So you mentioned the traditional media has a tendency to be really heavy on awareness, which is the first step in the buyer journey. Josh, how do you take it from there?
Josh Scheer: [00:08:06] We just run with it. So the whole purpose of what we do, I mean, it depends on each individual client what piece of the funnel we’re starting with. But typically we’re trying to harness any sort of consideration or any sort of potential audience that these clients have and push them deeper into the buyer journey like you were talking about and actually getting them to perform some sort of action that indicates they’re going to come visit.
Adam Stoker: [00:08:33] Okay, So as you and Sasha have been working together to build plans for destinations, what have you learned about the buyer journey for tourism?
Josh Scheer: [00:08:43] That it really needs to be full funnel. If we can focus on just getting people to download visitor guides or just trying to get people to book something if you’re lucky enough to have a booking engine on your site. But honestly, you’re going to miss out on opportunities if you’re not focused at the top and then you’re going to miss out if you’re not focused on the bottom.
So I mean, Sasha and I will fight over who’s going to handle different pieces of the awareness portion of the funnel and what the best way to go about that is –
Sasha Jackson: [00:09:14] Let the record show that I win.
Josh Scheer: [00:09:20] She is stubborn. It’s true. That’s very true. But yeah, you got to focus on the whole thing.
Adam Stoker: [00:09:30] Okay. Anything to add their Sasha other than a victory chant or anything like that?
Sasha Jackson: [00:09:34] I mean, I’ll just carry on. No, just kidding on victory. I think as you were talking Josh, I just thought about the time that it does take that Adam alluded to actually get a visitor in the destination. I mean you’re asking them to spend a lot of money, take a trip, maybe bring their whole family. So it is just a harder sell than certain products that we might be marketing. So I think it just takes time and it just takes frequency across tactics.
Adam Stoker: [00:09:59] Alright, Sasha, I’m going to start with you. I want to know some mistakes that you’ve seen destinations make on the traditional media side.
Josh Scheer: [00:10:09] Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is people usually want to spread their dollars across multiple channels and sometimes that is just fine when it comes to traditional media, but it’s not fine if you have a smaller budget, like if you’re small to mid-sized destination and you’d like to do multiple large tactics. You’re just going to be spread so thin that people won’t be like seeing you enough. You won’t have the outcome that you’re looking for with that. So my advice would be to hone in to just get more specific with what you’re actually trying to accomplish and just choose somewhere that you can really penetrate the market, so to speak.
Adam Stoker: [00:10:48] Okay, great. Josh, what about you? What are some mistakes you’re seeing on the digital side?
Josh Scheer: [00:10:52] The biggest problem I see that comes up on the digital side is if the client doesn’t have a specific goal that they want to accomplish. If we don’t have a conversion action to focus on, the efficacy of the marketing is just going to be null and void. We have no idea what we’re actually doing. So I mean, I think on the traditional side it’s easier to not have a very specific goal because there’s a lack of tracking. Like we were saying, obviously, you need a goal. Don’t give me that look.
Sasha Jackson: [00:11:20] He sees me making faces at him.
Josh Scheer: [00:11:21] Don’t give me that look. But we can actually track specific things on the digital side. And if you’re just like, hey, we just want traffic to the website, that isn’t going to build necessarily long-term value for you and your destination. You have to figure out exactly what you want out of it.
Adam Stoker: [00:11:40] Okay, well you guys, I’m excited for your show. It’s a great show. I’ve heard the first couple of episodes and I know you’re still just getting started. So it’s going to be fun to see where it goes. It’s going to be fun to see if the fight between the two of you over traditional and digital media ever gets settled. On that note, I think we’ll close with this final question of if you gun to your head right now, we’re to say, what percentage should a destination be spending on digital versus traditional? What would you say? I’m going to go Sasha and then Josh.
Sasha Jackson: [00:12:10] Okay, 60-46. 60 traditional, 40 digital.
Adam Stoker: [00:12:12] And you’re going to take 60%?
Sasha Jackson: [00:12:16] Yes because traditional media cost more money so you’re going to have to spend a little bit more so we’re close to 50-50. But we’re going to spend a little bit more to just get the traction that we need.
Adam Stoker: [00:12:27] Okay. I can’t say that I’m shocked that you aired on your side of the table. Josh, I’m wondering what you think?
Josh Scheer: [00:12:33] I think that’s ridiculous. That’s what I think. 70-30. Digital.
Adam Stoker: [00:12:39] 70-30. Digital.
Sasha Jackson: [00:12:40] Really?
Josh Scheer: [00:12:42] Heck yeah.
Adam Stoker: [00:12:42] Why?
Josh Scheer: [00:12:43] Because you can do so much of what traditional does in the virtual world and people spend more time on their devices now than ever before. So yeah.
Adam Stoker: [00:12:56] Okay. We are not going to solve this today.
Sasha Jackson: [00:12:58] Yeah. What do you think Adam?
Adam Stoker: [00:12:59] I think that you both make some very compelling points. I think if someone really wants to get the answer to that question, they need to tune into your show.
Josh Scheer: [00:13:07] It sounds like a cop-out.
Sasha Jackson: [00:13:08] Yeah.
Adam Stoker: [00:13:09] It’s a very strategic cop-out.
Josh Scheer: [00:13:12] I like it. I like it.
Adam Stoker: [00:13:13] Thanks to both of you for coming on. What do people need to do if they want to listen to your show?
Sasha Jackson: [00:13:18] Wherever you listen to your podcasts, look for Tourism Media Mayhem and you’ll find us.
Adam Stoker: [00:13:22] Awesome. Well, thanks you guys. Looking forward to seeing where the show goes.
Sasha Jackson: [00:13:25] Thanks for having us.
Josh Scheer: [00:13:26] Yeah.
Adam Stoker: [00:13:28] Alright. Thanks everybody for listening. If you enjoyed today’s content, don’t forget to leave us a rating or review or other than that, we’ll see you next week.
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